Here it is – a conclusive clear statement of principles from both candidates, from the FoxNews debate last night (January 16th, 2012):
PAUL: “If another country does to us what we do others, we’re not going to like it very much. So I would say that maybe we ought to consider a golden rule in — in foreign policy,” he said. “Don’t do to other nations what we don’t want to have them do to us. So we — we endlessly bomb these countries and then we wonder why they get upset with us?” [crowd booed him - unbelievable]
ROMNEY: (in response) “Of course you take out our enemies, wherever they are,” he said. “These people declared war on us. They’ve killed Americans. We go anywhere they are, and we kill them. And the right thing for Usama bin Laden was the bullet in the head that he received. That’s the right thing for people who kill American citizens.”
Which one is Captain Moroni?
Which one is Amalakiah?
Vengance belongs to whom?
Who wants peace?
Who wants war?
Who is “Raising the standard of Peace” (D&C 98)?
Who is Christian?
Members are in love with the idea of a praying church member in office. What good will it do when the core principles of that man look like Romney’s above?
-Will
I haven’t watched the whole thing, but I kept thinking, who’s acting like a Nephite? Who is acting like a Lamanite? When the Nephites were righteous, as far as I know they never initiated war against the Lamanites, even knowing full well that the Lamanites wanted to kill them all. On the other hand, the Lamanites were happy to murder for things that happened long, long ago.
Could we add one more question to this post?
Which candidate will help us to keep the freedom of our religion (in the States and abroad?)
and please consider the following:
Today, many Christians abroad have to hide to live their religion.
If you go on a business trip in some countries and you have a bible or a book of mormon in your luggage, you will be put in prison!
Looking up our situation in the States, in many places churches cannot even put a nativity scene in front or their church or have the 10 commandments written on plates.
Which president will protect the freedom of our religion the best?
Indeed, which one is captain Moroni?
Great article. It got me thinking about the warning of “A test, a test, a test is coming.” Will members of the church recognize a righteous candidate who knows and understands the truth, utilizing what we’ve been taught using the Book of Mormon, or will members be swayed by one professing to be a Latter-day Saint? A test, a test, a test is coming. Hope we’re ready.
First off, I’m still undecided. I have grave reservations about all of the candidates. Second, I believe governments were instituted by God for the benefit of man.(D&C 134) Before any country, America included, seeks to interfere in another country’s government we must exhaust all other options. We do not have like all the different government’s people choose, but we must not interfere except in the most extreme cases. Again, I would direct you to D&C 134.
I believe that Paul is right about some of our foreign relations, but not across the board. There are times when we must step up and be bold. So, Paul’s statement sounds right, but it must be tempered against the reality that some people hate us “because of the traditions of their fathers” and we must be prepared in modern warfare. Moroni had the luxury of throwing up banks of earth to fortify cities. Modern technology has shrunk the earth, so to speak, and our front door is now much farther away from our actual front door.
There is a fine line between people yelling angry hurtful comments against America and those who plan careful and specific attacks against Americans. The first can be ignored or addressed in non-violent ways. The second must be addressed and deterred by our government, even with violence if necessary. The Book of Mormon distinguishes between those (all Nephites) who were softened by war (sorry to send so many of their bretheren unprepared to meet God) and those hardened (full of hatred, delighting in the shedding of blood.) Their attitudes were supremely important, but both defended liberty with war.
My question to Dr. Paul on when do we go abroad to fight would be found in D&C134. When we look at natural God-given rights: life, liberty, and property are we defending those? I have no doubt a common local thief wishes he wasn’t put in prison for his crimes, but we have an obligation to do so should he refuse to refrain from denying other’s natural rights.
My questions for Romney would follow the same vein. Are we fighting because we are bigger and there is no one else to stop us? Are we fighting in defense of our God-given natural rights having exhausted all other options? Are we sorry to send so many of our bretheren (for they are our brethern before God) unprepared to meet their Maker? Or do we delight in the shedding of blood?
Below I posted a search on lds.org under the scriptures tab for “gadianton robbers.” It reveals an interesting summary of their history and a warning for where we are on the path. (The only editing I did was to put them in chronological order based on their book, chapter and verse.) Something of great note is Helaman 6:37. The robbers were destroyed by hunting them down and converting them to the gospel. Very interesting. It does however end with having to physcially fight the gadianton robbers.
Helaman 3:23
23 And it came to pass in the forty and ninth year of the reign of the judges, there was continual peace established in the land, all save it were the secret combinations which Gadianton the robber had established in the more settled parts of the land, which at that time were not known unto those who were at the head of government; therefore they were not destroyed out of the land.
Helaman 6:18
18 And now behold, those murderers and plunderers were a band who had been formed by Kishkumen and Gadianton. And now it had come to pass that there were many, even among the Nephites, of Gadianton’s band. But behold, they were more numerous among the more wicked part of the Lamanites. And they were called Gadianton’s robbers and murderers.
Helaman 6:37
37 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadianton; and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites.
Helaman 7:4
4 And seeing the people in a state of such awful wickedness, and those Gadianton robbers filling the judgment-seats—having usurped the power and authority of the land; laying aside the commandments of God, and not in the least aright before him; doing no justice unto the children of men;
Helaman 11:26
26 And thus in time, yea, even in the space of not many years, they became an exceedingly great band of robbers; and they did search out all the secret plans of Gadianton; and thus they became robbers of Gadianton.
3 Nephi 1:27
27 And it came to pass that the ninety and third year did also pass away in peace, save it were for the Gadianton robbers, who dwelt upon the mountains, who did infest the land; for so strong were their holds and their secret places that the people could not overpower them; therefore they did commit many murders, and did do much slaughter among the people.
3 Nephi 1:29
29 And there was also a cause of much sorrow among the Lamanites; for behold, they had many children who did grow up and began to wax strong in years, that they became for themselves, and were led away by some who were Zoramites, by their lyings and their flattering words, to join those Gadianton robbers.
3 Nephi 2:11
11 And it came to pass in the thirteenth year there began to be wars and contentions throughout all the land; for the Gadianton robbers had become so numerous, and did slay so many of the people, and did lay waste so many cities, and did spread so much death and carnage throughout the land, that it became expedient that all the people, both the Nephites and the Lamanites, should take up arms against them.
3 Nephi 2:12
12 Therefore, all the Lamanites who had become converted unto the Lord did unite with their brethren, the Nephites, and were compelled, for the safety of their lives and their women and their children, to take up arms against those Gadianton robbers, yea, and also to maintain their rights, and the privileges of their church and of their worship, and their freedom and their liberty.
3 Nephi 2:18
18 And thus ended the fourteenth year. And in the fifteenth year they did come forth against the people of Nephi; and because of the wickedness of the people of Nephi, and their many contentions and dissensions, the Gadianton robbers did gain many advantages over them.
3 Nephi 3:15
15 Yea, he said unto them: As the Lord liveth, except ye repent of all your iniquities, and cry unto the Lord, ye will in nowise be delivered out of the hands of those Gadianton robbers.
4 Nephi 1:46
46 And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic.
Mormon 1:18
18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.
Mormon 2:27
27 And my heart did sorrow because of this the great calamity of my people, because of their wickedness and their abominations. But behold, we did go forth against the Lamanites and the robbers of Gadianton, until we had again taken possession of the lands of our inheritance.
I haven’t decided who I am voting for (and membership in a certain religion is not a criteria.) I am also not willing at present to criticize other’s decisions. This is a difficult time and we all stand accoutable to God for our choice.
Michelle,
Good critical thinking – people in general need to do more of that. I applaud your appropriate attitude toward the issue. I understand why you’re still undecided. But for me, a couple of distinct points help me resolve it.
1. American Exceptionalism. I believe we’re exceptional. The Lord’s revelations as to His hand in our system and liberty is explicit in the scriptures. And we say we’re “spreading democracy” now. I guess so, but we’re doing it at the point of a gun, by force. And if one resists, they’re labelled the terrorist, in their own country, resisting a foreign occupying force. I’ve been part of that occupying force in Iraq – interesting feeling. Forcing good upon others won’t work, and we all knew that in the war in heaven – which is now directly being fought here on Earth. And the U.S. is the one using force.
2. The proper role of government. Ezra Taft Benson said: “There is one and only one legitimate goal of United States foreign policy. It is a narrow goal, a nationalistic goal: the preservation of our national independence. Nothing in the Constitution grants that the president shall have the privilege of offering himself as a world leader. He is our executive; he is on our payroll; he is supposed to put our best interests in front of those of other nations. Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the president of the United States or to Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to ‘uplift’ their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their people, or even to defend them against their enemies.”(The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 614; see also p. 682 & 704). It’s hard to be any clearer than that.
3. Gadiantons. Most members feel Gadiantons today live in caves, or Mafia warehouses – but see our government as full of selfless public servants, benevolent and inherently good. However, the scriptures can help us have a proper perspective.
Helaman 6:
37 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadianton; and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites. [You quoted this one above]
38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.
39 And thus they did obtain the sole management of the government, insomuch that they did trample under their feet and smite and rend and turn their backs upon the poor and the meek, and the humble followers of God.
Best of luck with your decision, Michelle.
When you look at the history of how America dealt with Iran for example and also Sadam Hussain in Iraq, you will see very dirty dealings by the US Govt. The biggest threat to the freedom of the American people would seem to me to be the current US Government. These are your Gadianton robbers, just look at what is happening and who Obama has in key positions, Marxists, anti-christians, pro-abortionists etc etc. These are the biggest threat to American people. These same people are aggravating Iran and other countries, and if millions of innocent Americans and other people die because of it, don’t think that they will be in the slightest bit concerned. USA has created enemies because of the way they have treated countries in the past and it has now come back to haunt them. The ordinary people had no idea of what was going on “in the shadows” with the CIA and black ops etc. BUT they need to educate themselves as to why it is that they are so hated. China, Russia (who have always been secret allies by the way) are now united in the financial efforts to bring America down. The middle east countries the same. At the same time you have the worst president EVER, who is helping the decline in ways that are obviously deliberate to anyone who wishes to look closely. Ron Paul seems to be the only candidate who recognises this and sees this fear and hatred from Iran as an understandable and unavoidable consequence of previously dastardly behaviour, including the overthrow of a democratically elected government in the 1950′s. This is the time we have been warned about, and without Ron Paul at the helm, I am afraid America will end up the most hated and one of the poorest countries in the world. Mitt Romney may be LDS but Ron Paul is closest to the standards and is consistent, informed on foreign matters and a statesman. You don’t hear any personal attacks on others by him or CPAC ads denigrating people.
Good points, but I would also like to mention that Dr. Paul signed off on us trying to attack Osama Bin Laden, so in away, I agree with both parties. Alma 53:17 says: And they entered into a covenant to fight for the liberty of the Nephites, yea, to protect the land unto the laying down of their lives; yea, even they covenanted that they never would give up their liberty, but they would fight in all cases to protect the Nephites and themselves from bondage. 3 Nephi 3:2 says … ye do stand well, as if ye were supported by the hand of a god, in the defence of your liberty, and your property, and your country, or that which ye do call so.
In the case of Osama bin Laden, the attack on us was an act of “war”, allowing us to defend what we hold to be sacred. I don’t agree though, that we just find them and “put a bullet in their head”, but I agree we do what we can to find them so it doesn’t happen to more innocent people, but the problem that we have, is that we have gone to multiple places around the world, policing the world, and justify it all because we’re trying to find the one who is responsible for the attacks.
Ron Paul signed off on us trying to capture Osama bin Laden, but he never signed off on going to ward with several countries. We completely went about it the wrong way, so Paul is right that we defend our liberty but until then create peace and try to build relationships with our neighbors and until, while on the other hand, we must defend it, but go about it in a way that still holds true to our values for liberty. We’ve gone about it the wrong way.