Comments on: The Coming Apostasy of Latter-day Conservatives http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/ Advancing the cause of liberty in light of the restored gospel. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:04:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: John Peterson http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-5795 John Peterson Fri, 03 Feb 2012 19:34:04 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-5795 What we must come to understand is that there can be no peace without righteousness. Leaders like Romney (who believes in abortion) and Huntsman (who believes in evolution) can't possibly elevate this country spiritually any more than Obama (who believes in evolution and abortion). It's likely that men like this are some of those whom God was speaking about when he said: "And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood." (Isaiah 1:15) What's worse, is that it's the blood of the innocent that is being spilt. What's even more outlandish is that it is done in the name of freedom. We might as well classify all murder under the banner of pro-choice. What we must come to understand is that there can be no peace without righteousness. Leaders like Romney (who believes in abortion) and Huntsman (who believes in evolution) can’t possibly elevate this country spiritually any more than Obama (who believes in evolution and abortion). It’s likely that men like this are some of those whom God was speaking about when he said:

“And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.”
(Isaiah 1:15)

What’s worse, is that it’s the blood of the innocent that is being spilt. What’s even more outlandish is that it is done in the name of freedom. We might as well classify all murder under the banner of pro-choice.

]]> By: Dean Carlson http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-5754 Dean Carlson Thu, 02 Feb 2012 08:08:53 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-5754 I was searching for Mark Benson, Ezra's son and Mark Scousen and found this forum. I was part of the Center for constitutional studies group that was responsible along with Ezra Taft Benson and son's of both to get Orin Hatch elected. I always prayed to have the next generation from those hero's of mine along with Ronald Reagan to actually move to "saving the constitution" when it came to be "held by a thread". The thread that was let go of by Orin and our Mormon boy's with Huntsman and Romney has for years been held without any pause by congressman Ron Paul. How can a Mormon boy at one time allow for Government sponsored abortions and be a bishop at the same time. There is the Apostasy demonstrated! Ron Paul is a hero for the cause that Ezra Taft Benson envisioned and is found in the campaign for liberty. He puts to shame literally in comparison, the moderate and neo conservative Mormon boys. He speaks of Peace when the Mormon boys talk of killing and going to war not looking at the horror and actual history that we through our secret combination killing machine called the CIA has done. Apostasy is evident from the inside out when the PR department of the LDS church once again is more important than the doctrine of freedom and the writings of both Scousen, and Benson. I also was a good friend of Cleon's brother who wrote a book I helped self publish which was an admonishment on the members of the church to understand the first General Conference talk of Ezra Taft Benson, that the Book of Mormon was a call to action to let go of the "Great and Spacious Building" which is the institutions of man including the church, and find the true gospel in the heart and Christ within each of us, which surpasses the tree of knowledge of good and evil. President Benson very clearly warned members to find the true meaning of The Book of Mormon and be the change and step forward to demonstrate "the truth that sets us free" If one just asks the question, "free from what"? The answer is obvious and the story is told over and over again in The Book of Mormon. The test always works as Christ spoke of that which surpasses knowledge and is the pure love of Christ. It must be found and perpetuated in order for the truth to unite and bring in the millennial era that will be. It will be a land where the constitution is the realization and order of the age as Ezra Taft Benson envisioned for our children. The secret combination that Ezra Taft Benson warned of, is becoming self evident within the walls of the church when Corporations and Banking interests and their influence of merging the church mentality to a more moderate positioning is becoming more apparent just like seeing how Orin Hatch went from constitutionalist to moderate. Our warning unheeded that power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts. Put one in the position of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and you also put one in the position to be the focus and desire of the adversary to use them to step by step lead them and those who follow down the slippery slope of the secret combinations. I will do all I can to support and defend the "truth that sets us free" and the constitution which protects all from the "power" warning, knowing that when that takes me outside of the blessings of the church, I will be lovingly held within the arms of Christ and the knowing of "Well done thou good and faithful servant" I was searching for Mark Benson, Ezra’s son and Mark Scousen and found this forum.

I was part of the Center for constitutional studies group that was responsible along with Ezra Taft Benson and son’s of both to get Orin Hatch elected.

I always prayed to have the next generation from those hero’s of mine along with Ronald Reagan to
actually move to “saving the constitution” when it came to be “held by a thread”.

The thread that was let go of by Orin and our Mormon boy’s with Huntsman and Romney has for years been held without any pause by congressman Ron Paul. How can a Mormon boy at one time allow for Government sponsored abortions and be a bishop at the same time. There is the Apostasy demonstrated!

Ron Paul is a hero for the cause that Ezra Taft Benson envisioned and is found in the campaign for liberty. He puts to shame literally in comparison, the moderate and neo conservative Mormon boys.

He speaks of Peace when the Mormon boys talk of killing and going to war not looking at the horror and actual history that we through our secret combination killing machine called the CIA has done.

Apostasy is evident from the inside out when the PR department of the LDS church once again is
more important than the doctrine of freedom and the writings of both Scousen, and Benson.

I also was a good friend of Cleon’s brother who wrote a book I helped self publish which was an admonishment on the members of the church to understand the first General Conference talk of Ezra Taft Benson, that the Book of Mormon was a call to action to let go of the “Great and Spacious Building” which is the institutions of man including the church, and find the true gospel in the heart and Christ within each of us, which surpasses the tree of knowledge of good and evil. President Benson very clearly warned members to find the true meaning of The Book of Mormon and be the change and step forward to demonstrate “the truth that sets us free”

If one just asks the question, “free from what”? The answer is obvious and the story is told over and over again in The Book of Mormon. The test always works as Christ spoke of that which surpasses knowledge and is the pure love of Christ. It must be found and perpetuated in order for the truth to unite and bring in the millennial era that will be. It will be a land where the constitution is the realization and order of the age as Ezra Taft Benson envisioned for our children.

The secret combination that Ezra Taft Benson warned of, is becoming self evident within the walls of the church when Corporations and Banking interests and their influence of merging the church mentality to a more moderate positioning is becoming more apparent just like seeing how Orin Hatch went from constitutionalist to moderate. Our warning unheeded that power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts. Put one in the position of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and you also put one in the position to be the focus and desire of the adversary to use them to step by step lead them and those who follow down the slippery slope of the secret combinations.

I will do all I can to support and defend the “truth that sets us free” and the constitution which protects all from the “power” warning, knowing that when that takes me outside of the blessings of the church, I will be lovingly held within the arms of Christ and the knowing of “Well done thou good and faithful servant”

]]> By: Amber http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-5735 Amber Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:35:16 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-5735 I believe the clarion call had already happened and the Saints did not take heed. Many Saints accepted federal welfare during a time when the First President, even the prophet, warned them against it and against socialism, and set up the Church's welfare system. Today, so many people are so indoctrinated that the prophet's warning of secret combinations inspired many Saints to vote for the very people committing those secret combinations, not knowing any better. Now is the time for us to not be slothful servants, needing to be instructed in all things. Once our eyes are open and we see the danger, it is up to us to warn our neighbor. I believe the clarion call had already happened and the Saints did not take heed. Many Saints accepted federal welfare during a time when the First President, even the prophet, warned them against it and against socialism, and set up the Church’s welfare system. Today, so many people are so indoctrinated that the prophet’s warning of secret combinations inspired many Saints to vote for the very people committing those secret combinations, not knowing any better.

Now is the time for us to not be slothful servants, needing to be instructed in all things. Once our eyes are open and we see the danger, it is up to us to warn our neighbor.

]]> By: John Peterson http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-5130 John Peterson Sat, 03 Sep 2011 03:40:25 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-5130 Yes, but how do you keep all the grasshoppers out of your food storage, when winter arrives? Are you going to shoot your brothers and sisters because they were negligent in their preparations? Yes, but how do you keep all the grasshoppers out of your food storage, when winter arrives? Are you going to shoot your brothers and sisters because they were negligent in their preparations?

]]> By: John Peterson http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-5129 John Peterson Sat, 03 Sep 2011 03:37:47 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-5129 How is taking government welfare a form of freedom? The hand that feeds is the hand that leads. How is taking government welfare a form of freedom? The hand that feeds is the hand that leads.

]]> By: Ezra Taylor http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4998 Ezra Taylor Thu, 23 Jun 2011 06:02:43 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4998 You can choose to rely on the statistics of man, as you admit that is what you would provide to make your point. However, I think the words of the Lord and His servants on this subject are abundantly clear. The words of the Lord and His servants always last the test of time. The reasoning of men has not been so "lucky" You can choose to rely on the statistics of man, as you admit that is what you would provide to make your point. However, I think the words of the Lord and His servants on this subject are abundantly clear. The words of the Lord and His servants always last the test of time. The reasoning of men has not been so “lucky”

]]> By: Mark JBF http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4970 Mark JBF Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:00:07 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4970 I called no-one names. I have experience to back the statements I made. I work with the poor, the elderly and the abused on a daily basis. I am LDS and I'm a Social Worker. I choose to serve my brothers and sisters in that way. I choose to participate in government just as I chose to serve my country in the military for 20 years of my life and I am proud to have served. I choose to pay my taxes and I choose not to agree with your assessment. I could provide all the statistics in the world to prove the value of social programs. But it would do no good as these are government statistics compiled by government employees and are therefore, automatically suspect. I suppose I should concede the debate and accept that I have made no difference... that I have lost. But... have I lost? I called no-one names. I have experience to back the statements I made. I work with the poor, the elderly and the abused on a daily basis. I am LDS and I’m a Social Worker. I choose to serve my brothers and sisters in that way. I choose to participate in government just as I chose to serve my country in the military for 20 years of my life and I am proud to have served. I choose to pay my taxes and I choose not to agree with your assessment. I could provide all the statistics in the world to prove the value of social programs. But it would do no good as these are government statistics compiled by government employees and are therefore, automatically suspect. I suppose I should concede the debate and accept that I have made no difference… that I have lost. But… have I lost?

]]> By: Ezra Taylor http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4968 Ezra Taylor Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:11:44 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4968 A lot of name calling (fear, hatred, etc) but not a lot of facts to back any of what you said up. It is a common falsehood spread by authoritarian lovers of big government to say that the teachings against government redistribution schemes are recent in Church history. However, it is completely false. Those that lived the United Order, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc, spoke out against socialism and the redistribution of wealth by government and compulsive means. We heard Brother Taylor’s exposition of what is called Socialism this morning. What can they do? Live on each other and beg. It is a poor, unwise and very imbecile people who cannot take care of themselves. (President Brigham Young, 1870, JD-14:21) What right has any private man to take by force the property of another? The laws of all nations would punish such a man as a thief. Would thousands of men engaged in the same business make it more honorable? Certainly not. And if a nation were to do it, would a nation’s act sanctify a wrong deed? No; the Algerine pirates, or Arabian hordes, were never considered honorable, on account of their numbers; and a nation, or nations, engaging in this would only augment the banditti, but could never sanctify the deed. I shall not, here, enter into the various manners of obtaining wealth; but would merely state, that any unjust acquisition of it ought to be punished by law. Wealth is generally the representation of labour, industry, and talent. If one man is industrious, enterprising, diligent, careful, and saves property, and his children follow in his steps, and accumulate wealth; and another man is careless, prodigal, and lazy, and his children inherit his poverty, I cannot conceive upon what principles of justice, the children of the idle and profligate have a right to put their hands into the pockets of those who are diligent and careful, and rob them of their purse. Let this principle exist, and all energy and enterprise would be crushed. (John Taylor, 1852, Government of God, P. 23) I attended a second lecture on Socialism, by Mr. Finch; and after he got through, I made a few remarks, alluding to Sidney Rigdon and Alexander Campbell getting up a community at Kirtland, and of the big fish there eating up all the little fish. I said I did not believe the doctrine. Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6:33 It is a consistent message from the beginning of the restoration to today that government and compulsive methods of redistribution of wealth is Satanic, and hurts both the person that was stolen from as well as the recipient. It makes slaves of everyone except the masters who control who is taken from and who gets. A lot of name calling (fear, hatred, etc) but not a lot of facts to back any of what you said up. It is a common falsehood spread by authoritarian lovers of big government to say that the teachings against government redistribution schemes are recent in Church history. However, it is completely false. Those that lived the United Order, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc, spoke out against socialism and the redistribution of wealth by government and compulsive means.

We heard Brother Taylor’s exposition of what is called Socialism this morning. What can they do? Live on each other and beg. It is a poor, unwise and very imbecile people who cannot take care of themselves. (President Brigham Young, 1870, JD-14:21)

What right has any private man to take by force the property of another? The laws of all nations would punish such a man as a thief. Would thousands of men engaged in the same business make it more honorable? Certainly not. And if a nation were to do it, would a nation’s act sanctify a wrong deed? No; the Algerine pirates, or Arabian hordes, were never considered honorable, on account of their numbers; and a nation, or nations, engaging in this would only augment the banditti, but could never sanctify the deed.

I shall not, here, enter into the various manners of obtaining wealth; but would merely state, that any unjust acquisition of it ought to be punished by law. Wealth is generally the representation of labour, industry, and talent. If one man is industrious, enterprising, diligent, careful, and saves property, and his children follow in his steps, and accumulate wealth; and another man is careless, prodigal, and lazy, and his children inherit his poverty, I cannot conceive upon what principles of justice, the children of the idle and profligate have a right to put their hands into the pockets of those who are diligent and careful, and rob them of their purse. Let this principle exist, and all energy and enterprise would be crushed. (John Taylor, 1852, Government of God, P. 23)

I attended a second lecture on Socialism, by Mr. Finch; and after he got through, I made a few remarks, alluding to Sidney Rigdon and Alexander Campbell getting up a community at Kirtland, and of the big fish there eating up all the little fish. I said I did not believe the doctrine. Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6:33

It is a consistent message from the beginning of the restoration to today that government and compulsive methods of redistribution of wealth is Satanic, and hurts both the person that was stolen from as well as the recipient. It makes slaves of everyone except the masters who control who is taken from and who gets.

]]> By: Mark JBF http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4967 Mark JBF Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:02:02 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4967 I simply do not understand the palpable fear and hatred of social programs of any type that is voiced here and throughout the church by so many LDS folks in these past 30 to 40 years. Being afraid of WIC and Food Benefit programs is ludicrous. Equating charitable scocial programs and a genuine concern for the welfare of one's fellow citizens (and human beings) with despotic "socialism" or "Communism" is paranoid and foolish. Being afraid of participating in or supporting charitable government or private assistance programs because they will lead to despotic socialism is like being afraid that a godly, wholesome, hug will ultimately lead to fornication. Nonsense. Participating in a program designed to assist those who are financially needy is not a sin and will not lead to "dependence". The receipt of needed charity or assistance is not a "socialist gateway drug" which automatically dooms the recipient to a life of sinful dependency on others. People who need help and receive help are not "parasites" sucking away at your liberties. They are brothers and sisters -children of our Heavenly Father- who need our love and compassion. There are a few who do take advantage of any given assistance program, but they are in the small minority (and are usually caught and punished). I am stunned by the general attitude among LDS people lately (and many professed Christians in general)... and I suspect political influence over common sense and compassion at work in generating this attitude. This church, our church, led the way with charitable works, even attempting to live the law of consecration (which unfortunately the members failed to understand and failed at keeping it) and by creating a fine internal welfare program. There were many members of this church, well-known members who warned against the very same attitudes we are seeing today. The drive to get gain, the abhorrence of providing assistance to the poor and needy. The disrespect of and the disdain for our current President is one obvious sign of our current condition. Politics aside (and it should be aside, because today it has become nothing more than a hate-filled and distorted sporting event for both political parties). There is absolutely no excuse for any LDS member to do anything but pray for and ask God to bless and guide whoever might hold the Office of the President. Destroying social programs like SNAP (food benefits), Medicaid and Social Security will not result in a financial boom for anyone but the mega-wealthy. It will; however, result in terrible suffering for the poor, the elderly and the disabled. There simply are not enough private charitable resources available to handle the needs of these, our brothers and sisters (which is why these government programs were developed and launched in the first place). Believe it or not, there are political liberals and political independents in the LDS church. There are even those who ignore politics completely. (Thank God for free agency and freedom!) LDS does not automatically equate to right-wing conservative. When we enter the church and are converted, it doesn't mean that we come up from the water a new creature in the most popular political party among the church membership. When we enter the gateway to the Kingdom, it does not mean that we must conform to any political ideologies (whether it is tolerance of immorality or whether it is greed and lack of compassion) that are patently contrary to what we know Jesus taught of charity and sharing among each other and being the keepers of our brothers and sisters. The Book of Mormon, the Bible and the writings of the Prophet Joseph Smith are full of examples. I will not quote them simply because we all have read them and know them well (I hope). I end this stating a simple fact. Freedom and charitable programs (both private and government-provided) go hand in hand. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are not members of any political party (not Democrat or Republican). There are actually real-live Social Workers who are members of the church and know more about social programs and the overall condition of the poor and elderly than do those who rant against the very programs that sustain them or, at the least, keep them from even greater suffering. There is great danger in demonizing the poor and the elderly and/or in destroying the very things that sustain them. I do not believe that our Savior would support such actions by his children and I do not believe he is pleased by the hatred in our current extreme political debates and activities. I hope that my words will stir up thought and not contention... but if contention comes, maybe we should stop and think about why it is present at all. I simply do not understand the palpable fear and hatred of social programs of any type that is voiced here and throughout the church by so many LDS folks in these past 30 to 40 years. Being afraid of WIC and Food Benefit programs is ludicrous. Equating charitable scocial programs and a genuine concern for the welfare of one’s fellow citizens (and human beings) with despotic “socialism” or “Communism” is paranoid and foolish. Being afraid of participating in or supporting charitable government or private assistance programs because they will lead to despotic socialism is like being afraid that a godly, wholesome, hug will ultimately lead to fornication. Nonsense. Participating in a program designed to assist those who are financially needy is not a sin and will not lead to “dependence”. The receipt of needed charity or assistance is not a “socialist gateway drug” which automatically dooms the recipient to a life of sinful dependency on others. People who need help and receive help are not “parasites” sucking away at your liberties. They are brothers and sisters -children of our Heavenly Father- who need our love and compassion. There are a few who do take advantage of any given assistance program, but they are in the small minority (and are usually caught and punished). I am stunned by the general attitude among LDS people lately (and many professed Christians in general)… and I suspect political influence over common sense and compassion at work in generating this attitude. This church, our church, led the way with charitable works, even attempting to live the law of consecration (which unfortunately the members failed to understand and failed at keeping it) and by creating a fine internal welfare program. There were many members of this church, well-known members who warned against the very same attitudes we are seeing today. The drive to get gain, the abhorrence of providing assistance to the poor and needy. The disrespect of and the disdain for our current President is one obvious sign of our current condition. Politics aside (and it should be aside, because today it has become nothing more than a hate-filled and distorted sporting event for both political parties). There is absolutely no excuse for any LDS member to do anything but pray for and ask God to bless and guide whoever might hold the Office of the President. Destroying social programs like SNAP (food benefits), Medicaid and Social Security will not result in a financial boom for anyone but the mega-wealthy. It will; however, result in terrible suffering for the poor, the elderly and the disabled. There simply are not enough private charitable resources available to handle the needs of these, our brothers and sisters (which is why these government programs were developed and launched in the first place). Believe it or not, there are political liberals and political independents in the LDS church. There are even those who ignore politics completely. (Thank God for free agency and freedom!) LDS does not automatically equate to right-wing conservative. When we enter the church and are converted, it doesn’t mean that we come up from the water a new creature in the most popular political party among the church membership. When we enter the gateway to the Kingdom, it does not mean that we must conform to any political ideologies (whether it is tolerance of immorality or whether it is greed and lack of compassion) that are patently contrary to what we know Jesus taught of charity and sharing among each other and being the keepers of our brothers and sisters. The Book of Mormon, the Bible and the writings of the Prophet Joseph Smith are full of examples. I will not quote them simply because we all have read them and know them well (I hope). I end this stating a simple fact. Freedom and charitable programs (both private and government-provided) go hand in hand. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are not members of any political party (not Democrat or Republican). There are actually real-live Social Workers who are members of the church and know more about social programs and the overall condition of the poor and elderly than do those who rant against the very programs that sustain them or, at the least, keep them from even greater suffering. There is great danger in demonizing the poor and the elderly and/or in destroying the very things that sustain them. I do not believe that our Savior would support such actions by his children and I do not believe he is pleased by the hatred in our current extreme political debates and activities. I hope that my words will stir up thought and not contention… but if contention comes, maybe we should stop and think about why it is present at all.

]]> By: Cami Isle http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4875 Cami Isle Fri, 06 May 2011 02:27:19 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4875 I want the thank the author of this article for his insight, as well as those who have commented constructively. My husband and I have the same mind in this matter, although we are newly married and have babies on the way, we refuse to take government assistance in any form - despite the intense urging of all of our close family members. I testify that the Lord does provide a way for those who follow His counsel. We have been mocked and otherwise rejected by most of our family members over the issue, but we remain faithful to the counsel of the prophets and apostles. Has it been easy? No. Have we lived in luxury's lap during this time? Not hardly. Have we learned the principles of thrift, self reliance and industry? Absolutely. If given the choice, would we do it again? Yes, resoundingly. The tender mercies we have experienced during this time have acquainted us with God in ways that no other circumstance would have. I firmly believe it is in our extremity that God can and does teach us the great lessons of liberty and freedom. May we reject the false teachings of Satan, and embrace liberty in whatever our life circumstances, and bear testimony of the truth whenever possible. I want the thank the author of this article for his insight, as well as those who have commented constructively.

My husband and I have the same mind in this matter, although we are newly married and have babies on the way, we refuse to take government assistance in any form – despite the intense urging of all of our close family members. I testify that the Lord does provide a way for those who follow His counsel. We have been mocked and otherwise rejected by most of our family members over the issue, but we remain faithful to the counsel of the prophets and apostles. Has it been easy? No. Have we lived in luxury’s lap during this time? Not hardly. Have we learned the principles of thrift, self reliance and industry? Absolutely. If given the choice, would we do it again? Yes, resoundingly.

The tender mercies we have experienced during this time have acquainted us with God in ways that no other circumstance would have. I firmly believe it is in our extremity that God can and does teach us the great lessons of liberty and freedom. May we reject the false teachings of Satan, and embrace liberty in whatever our life circumstances, and bear testimony of the truth whenever possible.

]]> By: Sunlight http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4712 Sunlight Tue, 29 Mar 2011 02:57:28 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4712 The 'coming' apostacy? It happened along time ago. Today everyone in the Church seems to have apostatized & doesn't believe in or live the Gospel today, except a rare few. 2 Nephi 28 & other scriptures like it, are just describing our day today, even in the Church. We are in the last moments of time & it is rare to find anyone who is righteous or who really believes in Christ today, even in the Church. We must be able to discern truth from error, right from wrong & devils from saints & able to see how everyone is being deceived today to support or do evil or we too will be easily deceived, yet never know it. The ‘coming’ apostacy? It happened along time ago. Today everyone in the Church seems to have apostatized & doesn’t believe in or live the Gospel today, except a rare few. 2 Nephi 28 & other scriptures like it, are just describing our day today, even in the Church.

We are in the last moments of time & it is rare to find anyone who is righteous or who really believes in Christ today, even in the Church.

We must be able to discern truth from error, right from wrong & devils from saints & able to see how everyone is being deceived today to support or do evil or we too will be easily deceived, yet never know it.

]]> By: Daniel Lambson http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4692 Daniel Lambson Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:34:32 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4692 I didn't take the time to read all of the comments above, but have a little different view of what we must do to "listen to Samuel's voice". We must not only stop taking the government handouts, but more importantly we must stop supporting or paying into them. We could put all of that money into our own preparedness and to Tithes and Offerings of our choosing. I didn’t take the time to read all of the comments above, but have a little different view of what we must do to “listen to Samuel’s voice”. We must not only stop taking the government handouts, but more importantly we must stop supporting or paying into them. We could put all of that money into our own preparedness and to Tithes and Offerings of our choosing.

]]> By: Eric Norton http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4674 Eric Norton Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:25:11 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4674 You may have a very good point. Just please remember that the human perspective is very short sighted, but God's perspective is Eternal. Even in the light of recent event, and the Church's position on immigration. God is directing His Prophet, to carry out His will. If we are patient, in time, we will see the Lords Prophet justifed. You may have a very good point. Just please remember that the human perspective is very short sighted, but God’s perspective is Eternal. Even in the light of recent event, and the Church’s position on immigration. God is directing His Prophet, to carry out His will. If we are patient, in time, we will see the Lords Prophet justifed.

]]> By: John Forbes http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4618 John Forbes Sun, 13 Mar 2011 03:28:11 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4618 The LDS church is true. The teachings are true. We have a living prophet appointed by God The Father. Follow the church's official leadership and direction . Its that simple. Nobody said it would be an easy life. The LDS church is true. The teachings are true. We have a living prophet appointed by God The Father. Follow the church’s official leadership and direction . Its that simple. Nobody said it would be an easy life.

]]> By: John http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-4330 John Tue, 21 Dec 2010 14:09:39 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-4330 Just a quick comment about that flier. I am not here to "defend" it and what it says, just an observation as our ward employment specialist. This flier is part of the materials you can get online at ldsjobs.org as well as in print at the various employment resource centers. Again, I'm not defending what it says, but it should be noted that ldsjobs.org as well as our employment resource centers are OPEN TO ALL. I personally have helped several non-members setup accounts and make appointments for help at one of the ERC's. It "could be" that the reference to "gov't' programs" is there because this help is available to all folks not just church members. I'm guessing of course, but I just want people to give that a shred of consideration given the context where this document is normally downloaded/seen. Just a quick comment about that flier. I am not here to “defend” it and what it says, just an observation as our ward employment specialist. This flier is part of the materials you can get online at ldsjobs.org as well as in print at the various employment resource centers. Again, I’m not defending what it says, but it should be noted that ldsjobs.org as well as our employment resource centers are OPEN TO ALL. I personally have helped several non-members setup accounts and make appointments for help at one of the ERC’s. It “could be” that the reference to “gov’t’ programs” is there because this help is available to all folks not just church members. I’m guessing of course, but I just want people to give that a shred of consideration given the context where this document is normally downloaded/seen.

]]> By: Ralph Hughes http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-3972 Ralph Hughes Fri, 10 Sep 2010 04:53:16 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-3972 I am disturbed by Walter’s report that some Church members were released from their callings for having quoted President Benson on the responsibility we have to defend the Constitution. I have done that twice now in the past year and have received no flak from the bishop; only indirectly from a couple of members. Fact is, I have a hard time even finding opportunities to talk about freedom, the Constitution, and our “awful situation”. I wonder if those who ran afoul of their bishops had disobediently talked about freedom and the Constitution after having been told to discontinue doing so. Is anybody else aware of members being told to not talk on thes subjects in church? I am disturbed by Walter’s report that some Church members were released from their callings for having quoted President Benson on the responsibility we have to defend the Constitution. I have done that twice now in the past year and have received no flak from the bishop; only indirectly from a couple of members. Fact is, I have a hard time even finding opportunities to talk about freedom, the Constitution, and our “awful situation”. I wonder if those who ran afoul of their bishops had disobediently talked about freedom and the Constitution after having been told to discontinue doing so. Is anybody else aware of members being told to not talk on thes subjects in church?

]]> By: Walter http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-3792 Walter Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:39:09 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-3792 This is a timely article. 2nd Nephi 28:14 predicts a general state of apostasy within Christianity in the last days, affecting even "many" members of the Church(humble followers of Christ). President J. Reuben Clark Jr. and President Ezra Taft Benson in particular identified the source of these apostate "precepts of men" as LDS priesthood leaders on the local, stake, and general level. "Yes, within the Church today there are tares among the wheat and wolves within the flock. As President(J. Reuben) Clark stated, 'The RAVENING WOLVES are amongst us, from our own membership, and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing because they wear the habiliments of the priesthood...We should be careful of them'...(J. Reuben Clark Jr., CR, April 1949, p. 163) "The wolves amongst our flock are more numerous and devious today than when Pres. Clark made this statement...Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble..."(Ezra Taft Benson, CR, April, 1969, p. 11) "What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction. Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God WHETHER they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders , did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whisperings of the Spirit of God to themselves, WHETHER their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, OR NOT.(Brigham Young, JD, Jan. 12, 1862, 9:151) "Sometimes from behind the pulpit, in our classrooms, in our COUNCIL MEETINGS, we hear, read, or witness things that do not square with the truth. This is especially true WHERE FREEDOM IS INVOLVED. Now do not let this serve as an excuse for your own wrongdoing. The Lord is letting the wheat and the tares mature before he fully purges the Church. HE IS ALSO TESTING YOU TO SEE IF YOU WILL BE MISLED. The devil is trying to deceive the very elect".(Ezra Taft Benson, Oct. 1966, in an address to the student body at BYU) "Some lesser men have used in the past, and will use in the future, their offices unrightously. Some will, ignorantly or otherwise, use their office to PROMOTE FALSE COUNCIL; some will use it to persuade us that all is well in Zion; some will use it to COVER AND EXCUSE THEIR IGNORANCE...Let us live close to the Spirit SO WE CAN TEST ALL COUNCIL..."Ezra Taft Benson, CR, Oct. 2, 1966. In other words, the principle of unquestioned obedience to our priesthood leaders is a false principal. The Lord will not reward us for such spiritual laziness. Keep in mind that when David O. McKay was the president of the Church, satanic socialism had become so widely accepted among LDS priesthood leaders that Pres. McKay assigned his councilor J. Reuben Clark Jr. to interview every professor at BYU as well as every member of the administrative staff, and summarily fire all those who would not renounce socialism and agree to stop teaching it. There was weeping and wailing amongst LDS socialists when this took place. Now, remember that this was about 45 years ago. Try to imagine how much worse the problem is today. Mark Benson, son of Ezra Taft Benson, told a close personal friend of mine in Salt Lake that with the death of his Father, the socialists in the Church had taken over. Considering the number of good, conservative, LDS I have known over the years, including myself, who were released from all their callings immediately after quoting President Benson on the responsibility we have to defend the Constitution, it is easy for me to believe this. It is good to know the Church is true. It is a lot better to know Jesus Christ, and be familiar with and committed to the Gospel He taught. What is the best way to do this? The greatest prophet who ever lived, even Joseph Smith, said it was to abide by the precepts in the Book of Mormon. Nuff said! This is a timely article. 2nd Nephi 28:14 predicts a general state of apostasy within Christianity in the last days, affecting even “many” members of the Church(humble followers of Christ). President J. Reuben Clark Jr. and President Ezra Taft Benson in particular identified the source of these apostate “precepts of men” as LDS priesthood leaders on the local, stake, and general level. “Yes, within the Church today there are tares among the wheat and wolves within the flock. As President(J. Reuben) Clark stated, ‘The RAVENING WOLVES are amongst us, from our own membership, and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep’s clothing because they wear the habiliments of the priesthood…We should be careful of them’…(J. Reuben Clark Jr., CR, April 1949, p. 163) “The wolves amongst our flock are more numerous and devious today than when Pres. Clark made this statement…Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble…”(Ezra Taft Benson, CR, April, 1969, p. 11) “What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction. Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God WHETHER they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders , did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whisperings of the Spirit of God to themselves, WHETHER their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, OR NOT.(Brigham Young, JD, Jan. 12, 1862, 9:151) “Sometimes from behind the pulpit, in our classrooms, in our COUNCIL MEETINGS, we hear, read, or witness things that do not square with the truth. This is especially true WHERE FREEDOM IS INVOLVED. Now do not let this serve as an excuse for your own wrongdoing. The Lord is letting the wheat and the tares mature before he fully purges the Church. HE IS ALSO TESTING YOU TO SEE IF YOU WILL BE MISLED. The devil is trying to deceive the very elect”.(Ezra Taft Benson, Oct. 1966, in an address to the student body at BYU) “Some lesser men have used in the past, and will use in the future, their offices unrightously. Some will, ignorantly or otherwise, use their office to PROMOTE FALSE COUNCIL; some will use it to persuade us that all is well in Zion; some will use it to COVER AND EXCUSE THEIR IGNORANCE…Let us live close to the Spirit SO WE CAN TEST ALL COUNCIL…”Ezra Taft Benson, CR, Oct. 2, 1966.
In other words, the principle of unquestioned obedience to our priesthood leaders is a false principal. The Lord will not reward us for such spiritual laziness. Keep in mind that when David O. McKay was the president of the Church, satanic socialism had become so widely accepted among LDS priesthood leaders that Pres. McKay assigned his councilor J. Reuben Clark Jr. to interview every professor at BYU as well as every member of the administrative staff, and summarily fire all those who would not renounce socialism and agree to stop teaching it. There was weeping and wailing amongst LDS socialists when this took place. Now, remember that this was about 45 years ago. Try to imagine how much worse the problem is today. Mark Benson, son of Ezra Taft Benson, told a close personal friend of mine in Salt Lake that with the death of his Father, the socialists in the Church had taken over. Considering the number of good, conservative, LDS I have known over the years, including myself, who were released from all their callings immediately after quoting President Benson on the responsibility we have to defend the Constitution, it is easy for me to believe this. It is good to know the Church is true. It is a lot better to know Jesus Christ, and be familiar with and committed to the Gospel He taught. What is the best way to do this? The greatest prophet who ever lived, even Joseph Smith, said it was to abide by the precepts in the Book of Mormon. Nuff said!

]]> By: Shoal Creek http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-3735 Shoal Creek Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:19:05 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-3735 I have a few points to fuel the discussion that are not so obvious. The purpose of avoiding government welfare, as I understand it, was because: (1) over time, relying on welfare destroys our ability to be self reliant; and, (2) it is considered theft through government. Consider that maybe only a few years are left to prepare for the hardships that are coming. Then consider how that affects the points above. This would make it so that: (1) if we needed to rely on welfare, there is not enough time left for it to destroy our ability to be self-reliant; and, (2) the Lord is justifying His people in obtaining that which they need to survive the next few years, even if it does mean obtaining it through theft by government (somewhat like Nephi was justified in killing Laban, especially since the destruction of the current government and the country is nearly made sure and the government will continue to steal anyway). I know of people that need welfare, but use it wisely to build their food storage (e.g. purchasing bulk wheat at Macey's grocery store, etc.). If time is that short, would not their actions then be justified, based on what the church handbook states? I have a few points to fuel the discussion that are not so obvious.

The purpose of avoiding government welfare, as I understand it, was because: (1) over time, relying on welfare destroys our ability to be self reliant; and, (2) it is considered theft through government.

Consider that maybe only a few years are left to prepare for the hardships that are coming. Then consider how that affects the points above. This would make it so that: (1) if we needed to rely on welfare, there is not enough time left for it to destroy our ability to be self-reliant; and, (2) the Lord is justifying His people in obtaining that which they need to survive the next few years, even if it does mean obtaining it through theft by government (somewhat like Nephi was justified in killing Laban, especially since the destruction of the current government and the country is nearly made sure and the government will continue to steal anyway).

I know of people that need welfare, but use it wisely to build their food storage (e.g. purchasing bulk wheat at Macey’s grocery store, etc.). If time is that short, would not their actions then be justified, based on what the church handbook states?

]]> By: Marion http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-2731 Marion Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:08:24 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-2731 I do want to add that there will be no apostasy this time. The real tragedy is that many members will leave the church because of their disagreement with its standards. I do want to add that there will be no apostasy this time. The real tragedy is that many members will leave the church because of their disagreement with its standards.

]]> By: Marion http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-2724 Marion Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:30:58 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-2724 A fantastic report! A fantastic report!

]]>