Comments on: Do the Scriptures Support Taxation?—A Reply to Caleb Smitherson http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/ Advancing the cause of liberty in light of the restored gospel. Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:55:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Libertarianism – A Correction To Caleb Smitherson | LDS Freemen http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-165 Libertarianism – A Correction To Caleb Smitherson | LDS Freemen Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:59:18 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-165 [...] Caleb’s position is that God has authorized some coercive taxation and limited government. Chris Brown’s position is that Gabriel Fink has misinterpreted his quoted Book of Mormon passages. This debate continues [...] [...] Caleb’s position is that God has authorized some coercive taxation and limited government. Chris Brown’s position is that Gabriel Fink has misinterpreted his quoted Book of Mormon passages. This debate continues [...]

]]> By: Caleb Smitherson http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-164 Caleb Smitherson Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:27:01 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-164 My response and dismissal of the conclusions reached by Chris is located here: http://www.ldsfreemen.com/kingmosiahstax/ My response and dismissal of the conclusions reached by Chris is located here:

http://www.ldsfreemen.com/kingmosiahstax/

]]> By: But King Mosiah Levied a Tax – A reply to Chris Brown | LDS Freemen http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-163 But King Mosiah Levied a Tax – A reply to Chris Brown | LDS Freemen Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:24:56 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-163 [...] than refute each assertion made by Chris is his article which was a response to my initial article, a new argument will be presented which I believe [...] [...] than refute each assertion made by Chris is his article which was a response to my initial article, a new argument will be presented which I believe [...]

]]> By: Skyler Collins http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-162 Skyler Collins Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:07:16 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-162 I don't think so. It just goes to show how short the governments of men fall compared to the Kingdom of God. I don’t think so. It just goes to show how short the governments of men fall compared to the Kingdom of God.

]]> By: Robert http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-161 Robert Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:44:22 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-161 I too found it very interesting and very logical. I am not sure what to make of this line of thought. Am I being deceived by the sophistry of men? I too found it very interesting and very logical. I am not sure what to make of this line of thought. Am I being deceived by the sophistry of men?

]]> By: Skyler Collins http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-160 Skyler Collins Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:09:49 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-160 I have read that and found it a very interesting look at the life of Christ. I'm actually planning (hopefully) a short article on the relevant parts and Christmas. ^_^. I have read that and found it a very interesting look at the life of Christ. I’m actually planning (hopefully) a short article on the relevant parts and Christmas. ^_^.

]]> By: Robert http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-159 Robert Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:48:19 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-159 Have any of you read Jesus Is an Anarchist (A free-market/libertarian anarchist, that is--otherwise what is called an anarcho-capitalist.) by James Redford? Read it here: http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html Any thoughts? Have any of you read Jesus Is an Anarchist (A free-market/libertarian anarchist, that is–otherwise what is called an anarcho-capitalist.) by James Redford?

Read it here: http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html

Any thoughts?

]]> By: Skyler Collins http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-158 Skyler Collins Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:31:46 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-158 Karson said, "The LDS church has taken on attitudes and policies that assume everyone is a citizen, is subject to taxation, and must file and pay in order to be in good standing." I wonder how much of that is because doing such keeps us out of jail and able to fulfill our covenants (to God and our families)? Though it may be right to resist your illegitimate master, it may not always be wise. Karson said, “The LDS church has taken on attitudes and policies that assume everyone is a citizen, is subject to taxation, and must file and pay in order to be in good standing.”

I wonder how much of that is because doing such keeps us out of jail and able to fulfill our covenants (to God and our families)? Though it may be right to resist your illegitimate master, it may not always be wise.

]]> By: Karson http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-157 Karson Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:01:57 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-157 The LDS church has taken on attitudes and policies that assume everyone is a citizen, is subject to taxation, and must file and pay in order to be in good standing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have never understood that this was a sentiment that was held as any church policy or "understanding". To the contrary, I feel that the leaders of the church have encouraged people to seek wisdom from the best books. I hold to the position that the Spirit being the revealer of all truth and the ultimate Teacher, will instruct every man to the extent that he is able to understand truth. The principles of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Fedralist Papers, and other works of the Founders, are self-evident eternal truths, that everyone needs to understand. For this reason, I say that for myself, I know that the overreaching Federal Government as currently constituted, with the volumes of unconstitutional rules, regulation and administrative red tape should be abolished if we are to ever restore this country to a true land of freedom. Currently we do not know freedom as intended by God or the Founders, and we will not unless we as individuals, and families can begin to understand these basic truths for ourselves, then teach them to all who are willing to lend a listening ear, not unlike the need to proclaim the Gospel to all those who will hear. The LDS church has taken on attitudes and policies that assume everyone is a citizen, is subject to taxation, and must file and pay in order to be in good standing.
—————————————————————————————————————
I have never understood that this was a sentiment that was held as any church policy or
“understanding”. To the contrary, I feel that the leaders of the church have encouraged people to seek wisdom from the best books. I hold to the position that the Spirit being the revealer of all truth and the ultimate Teacher, will instruct every man to the extent that he is able to understand truth. The principles of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Fedralist Papers, and other works of the Founders, are self-evident eternal truths, that everyone needs to understand. For this reason, I say that for myself, I know that the overreaching Federal Government as currently constituted, with the volumes of unconstitutional rules, regulation and administrative red tape should be abolished if we are to ever restore this country to a true land of freedom. Currently we do not know freedom as intended by God or the Founders, and we will not unless we as individuals, and families can begin to understand these basic truths for ourselves, then teach them to all who are willing to lend a listening ear, not unlike the need to proclaim the Gospel to all those who will hear.

]]> By: Joel http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-156 Joel Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:42:10 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-156 The imposition of tax upon citizens, those who are beneficiaries of government’s protection actually rendered to it’s citizens, and to pay for services government may provide as well, may have provisional justification, so long as, in the system of the United States of America, the people are able to retain their right to accept or reject services offered and to consent or not consent to accepting the protections offered, making the taxation consentual and voluntary. Citizenship in this country is a political decision. Commitment to become a citizen is a matter of becoming subject to political manipulations of political factions and is an understanding lost to most American’s minds where “good citizenship” is taught to be an unquestionable foundation stone of being a worthy member of society. Gabriel cannot be taken seriously, for he makes connections where none exist and finds justification for taxation upon people without clearly analyzing the cites he refers to. His perspective would quickly allow taxation to be imposed upon everyone and everything to the point of annihilating any distinction between a subject of political gangs and a supposed freeman. Unfortunately his thinking is all too common in a society steeped and conditioned for a lifetime in the apologies and ongoing usurpations for taxation of a free people. The assumptions implied by the theme quotes this website posts as points of departure are also insufficiently clear, standing by themselves, to offer a sustainable defense against usurpations from many fronts, and leaves the believer defenseless against them. Deeper analysis of the subject is necessary. The LDS church has taken on attitudes and policies that assume everyone is a citizen, is subject to taxation, and must file and pay in order to be in good standing. Such a generalized policy leaves discussion and analysis lost in the rush to conformity, and seems to be a disservice to members, who, above all people, ought to be left to their own private mental analysis and conscientious decisions as to where they personally stand in the politicized landscape. The imposition of tax upon citizens, those who are beneficiaries of government’s protection actually rendered to it’s citizens, and to pay for services government may provide as well, may have provisional justification, so long as, in the system of the United States of America, the people are able to retain their right to accept or reject services offered and to consent or not consent to accepting the protections offered, making the taxation consentual and voluntary.

Citizenship in this country is a political decision. Commitment to become a citizen is a matter of becoming subject to political manipulations of political factions and is an understanding lost to most American’s minds where “good citizenship” is taught to be an unquestionable foundation stone of being a worthy member of society.

Gabriel cannot be taken seriously, for he makes connections where none exist and finds justification for taxation upon people without clearly analyzing the cites he refers to. His perspective would quickly allow taxation to be imposed upon everyone and everything to the point of annihilating any distinction between a subject of political gangs and a supposed freeman. Unfortunately his thinking is all too common in a society steeped and conditioned for a lifetime in the apologies and ongoing usurpations for taxation of a free people.

The assumptions implied by the theme quotes this website posts as points of departure are also insufficiently clear, standing by themselves, to offer a sustainable defense against usurpations from many fronts, and leaves the believer defenseless against them.

Deeper analysis of the subject is necessary. The LDS church has taken on attitudes and policies that assume everyone is a citizen, is subject to taxation, and must file and pay in order to be in good standing. Such a generalized policy leaves discussion and analysis lost in the rush to conformity, and seems to be a disservice to members, who, above all people, ought to be left to their own private mental analysis and conscientious decisions as to where they personally stand in the politicized landscape.

]]> By: Kevin http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-155 Kevin Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:57:01 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-155 Even while Christ walked the Earth, he told his disciples to render unto Ceasar that which was Ceasar's. This was a response to his disciple asking about taxes, and why should Christ have to pay. We know that we are subject to those kingdoms and places in which we are born. As a people born within the United States, we have much more say as to what should be taxed, and we have the ability to be much more involved in the process of saying "No!", than anywhere else. Therefore, it is our God given responsibility to do all that we can to halt the abuses of the tax man, and, if possible, minimize the further erosion of the value of our dollar by placing safeguards upon it. Perhaps a fixed tax is best. We then would have less money going to the employees of the IRS (I think there might be a major lay-off), and a lot more to those things which our federal government has Constitutional rights spend it on. There might even be so much available money, our national debt would start to decrease! Regardless, we must each ask God what he would have us do, and then put our shoulder to the wheel in faith. Bless you all, and keep your powder dry! Kevin (Son of Jefferson) Decker Even while Christ walked the Earth, he told his disciples to render unto Ceasar that which was Ceasar’s. This was a response to his disciple asking about taxes, and why should Christ have to pay. We know that we are subject to those kingdoms and places in which we are born. As a people born within the United States, we have much more say as to what should be taxed, and we have the ability to be much more involved in the process of saying “No!”, than anywhere else.

Therefore, it is our God given responsibility to do all that we can to halt the abuses of the tax man, and, if possible, minimize the further erosion of the value of our dollar by placing safeguards upon it. Perhaps a fixed tax is best. We then would have less money going to the employees of the IRS (I think there might be a major lay-off), and a lot more to those things which our federal government has Constitutional rights spend it on. There might even be so much available money, our national debt would start to decrease!

Regardless, we must each ask God what he would have us do, and then put our shoulder to the wheel in faith. Bless you all, and keep your powder dry!

Kevin (Son of Jefferson) Decker

]]> By: Karson http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-154 Karson Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:43:02 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-154 I could not agree more with your advocacy of the Constitution, and especially "at the time of Joseph"!. This is preciesly the crux of where we are, and gives us exact bounds within which to properly frame the argument. Not only is the 16th ammendment unlawfull under the constitution, but so is much of today's current Federal government structure, and especially "Old Age Survivor and Disability Insurance" (commonly known as Social Security), and the Medicaid/Medicare legislation passed by LBJ in 1965. Modern day prophets have been very vociferous against the rise of the state, and the peoples dependence on the government. Review the words of men of God such as Heber J. Grant, David O. McKay, Ezra Taft Benson, or even the teachings of th eProphet Joseph. I could not agree more with your advocacy of the Constitution, and especially “at the time of Joseph”!. This is preciesly the crux of where we are, and gives us exact bounds within which to properly frame the argument. Not only is the 16th ammendment unlawfull under the constitution, but so is much of today’s current Federal government structure, and especially “Old Age Survivor and Disability Insurance” (commonly known as Social Security), and the Medicaid/Medicare legislation passed by LBJ in 1965. Modern day prophets have been very vociferous against the rise of the state, and the peoples dependence on the government. Review the words of men of God such as Heber J. Grant, David O. McKay, Ezra Taft Benson, or even the teachings of th eProphet Joseph.

]]> By: Faanunu http://www.ldsliberty.org/do-the-scriptures-support-taxation%e2%80%94a-reply-to-gabriel-fink/#comment-153 Faanunu Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:55:42 +0000 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/?p=1372#comment-153 D&C 101:79-80 79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another. 80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood. D&C 109:54 54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever. D&C 98:4-10 4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them. 5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. 6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land; 7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil. 8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free. 9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn. 10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil. Perhaps the US Constitution should be what we derive if and what "taxes" should be paid... If the founders of this country were good and wise men perhaps their example of what we do should be followed. The real debate should be what amendments are Constitutional and existed at the time of Joseph. All men act according to their understanding... what better understanding than to repeal an unConstitutional 16th amendment and show others that perhaps there are too many burdensome taxes and dwindle them down. Will we be required to submit to those that want a global tax and government not authorized or intended by the US Constitution? D&C 101:79–80
79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.
80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

D&C 109:54
54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.

D&C 98:4–10
4 And now, verily I say unto you concerning the laws of the land, it is my will that my people should observe to do all things whatsoever I command them.
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

Perhaps the US Constitution should be what we derive if and what “taxes” should be paid… If the founders of this country were good and wise men perhaps their example of what we do should be followed. The real debate should be what amendments are Constitutional and existed at the time of Joseph. All men act according to their understanding… what better understanding than to repeal an unConstitutional 16th amendment and show others that perhaps there are too many burdensome taxes and dwindle them down. Will we be required to submit to those that want a global tax and government not authorized or intended by the US Constitution?

]]>