You give your consent to be taxed when you stay where you live or are too weak to fight the government. Rights are granted by “We the People”. Property Rights are bunk because if they exist, then we can just kill people in their homes and claim their property. Wars are a governmental service of creating borders (we couldn’t create them otherwise without war). You call government democracy when you win and “mob rule” when you’re outvoted. Great things happen in America when families take risks with other people’s money. Obama Care is a great idea and it’s moral because taxation is voluntary JUST like tithing is.
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I am offended at hearing that tithing is redistrobution of wealth. We give that money to the Lord and it is his!! He does with it as he will. There is no redistobution at all!!
Sorry that I left the last comment the way that I did. I think that the podcast is GREAT! I am still going to listen to it. :)
One other thing that I wanted to say is that taxes are taken out of MOST peoples pay checks. That to me is not voluntary. I have not heard of a single person that is american, getting deported for not paying taxes. The people who do not pay there taxes go to Jail. Not exactly voluntary in my mind.
Also I would just like to ask where people who do not agree with the law in the US are supposed to go if they disagree with the law. All the other countries are more extreme than this one. If Ben would like to tell me about the open tract of land that I can go to, I would be more than happy to go there rather than live with Obama care.
It seems very obvious to me that Ben’s belief system is very similar if not a glaring reflection of many members of the church.
I’m surprised that you didn’t bring up the parallels of his idea of what is right and acceptable sounds very similar to someone’s perspective from the past. “Satan’s plan presented in heaven”, that created the war there (which I will comment on in a moment).
So if we draw this parallel to ones idea of government, is it not then assumed that, such a government (or better yet a people that allows such a government) evil?
Should we as a people stand by or even choose the side of such an evil (ANTI CHRIST) to continue to operate without us taking up arms as a people (rebel force) and overthrow such evil?
After all we are not going to another land or property and telling them how they must live or believe, but defending our own land and properties and our (God-given) rights.
The first many blows have been planted against those rights, even to the point of almost complete annihilation of our Liberties. What will it take for us to see that we are at war and loosing the battle before we march on capital hill and take back our nation?
Satan waged the war in heaven, that does not make it right or good just because the outcome was as God wished it to be. Will we stand by and continue to be “under condemnation from God”? Will we continue to CHOOSE to “walk in darkness at noon-day”?
I suppose we will until all is lost and we are going down in flames and nearly utter destruction from the evil powers that be, before we will awaken to our awful state.
Many in the Church suppose that Christ will come and save us from the destruction that we will have allowed. But he tells us that unless we have taken up the banner of freedom and hold inviolate those principals of freedom then we will not be known to him.
Those who believe that this statement applies to secular performances is right. According to the teachings of the Book of Mormon and President Ezra Taft Benson Christ is the government. In other words The Constitution of The United States, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and our inalienable rights are all together the same thing, inseparable, immutable and eternal.
Daniel Bates Lambson
Pertaining to the comments so far -
1. I’m not sure what definition is being used for “redistribution of wealth” but under any common usage of the phrase, tithing would have to be considered redistribution. The church builds temples and chapels all over the world and any time the church spends money it must be first collected, then secondly redistributed. Perhaps there is disagreement or offense taken at the connotation of the phrase and that is unfortunate because connotation is in the eye of the beholder – however connotation is not a principled position and the discussion of redistribution is meant to be principled.
2. There were comments made in this podcast that mentioned if there were evil afoot that I’d stand shoulder to shoulder combatting the evil. The argument, however, is not whether Obama care is evil – the discussion is whether there is a principled LDS position that supports Obama care and I believe it’s been proven that there is and furthermore a good argument could be made that Obama care actually increases and enhances liberty (provides a safety net, encourages risk-taking, cares for the tender-hearted and weak), which LDS members should be prepared to support.
“but under any common usage of the phrase, tithing would have to be considered redistribution”
-Then why does President Ezra Taft Benson specifically say this:
“the proper function of government is limited only to those spheres of activity within which the individual citizen has the right to act. By deriving its just powers from the governed, government becomes primarily a mechanism for defense against bodily harm, theft and involuntary servitude. It cannot claim the power to redistribute the wealth or force reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will. Government is created by man. No mted by man. No man possesses such power to delegate. The creature cannot exceed the creator.”
“a good argument could be made that Obama care actually increases and enhances liberty”
-Stealing my property is the opposite of increasing and enhancing my liberty.
Mr. Ben, That’s some slick political double talk there. You go right ahead and keep your head buried in the sand with the rest of the sheepel or start studying the about constitution and what it means. A good place to start would be to read “The Making of America” and then “The Five Thousand Year Leap”. There are many good books out there so that you can begin to understand the minds of the founding Fathers. Just start searching in earnest.
oops (about the Constitution)
I think the Majesty of Gods Law is a book that Ben needs to read as well. That is an EXCELLENT book.
When it comes to the tithing statement. I GIVE my money to the Lord and He does with it what He will. If he wants another house for members to be able to visit him, that is his perogative and in NO WAY redistribution.
Ben drew an analogy between paying your tithing and health care. I think there’s a big difference between the two that wasn’t brought up: our tithing money goes to pay for the things that the church wants to have, e.g. temples, relief for the poor, etc. Our generation is paying for that, and if the money isn’t there, as far as I know, then the church won’t do those things. Obamacare on the other hand, like social security, medicare, wars, and lots of other government programs, is essentially using BORROWED money, whether it’s directly borrowed from the Chinese and Saudis, or indirectly borrowed by printing money. One way or the other, the burden of the cost of these programs is not on our shoulders but on that of our children and grandchildren. Since they never consented to this, then I believe that any government program that we cannot afford is in effect a form of taxation without representation. This is my main problem with Obamacare, Medicare, etc. Obama says that he will not increase the national debt to pay for it (i.e. it’s fully-funded by current taxes), but anyone who knows history knows that’s a lie. LBJ said the same thing about Medicare and every year congress slips in a law that takes exception to that rule. The same will happen to Obamacare.
“increases and enhances liberty” followed by “provides a safety net, encourages risk-taking, cares for the tender-hearted and weak”? I don’t see the connection.
Ben was like a case study in circular reasoning in this podcast. Not to mention the absurd collectivism (“we, we, we”), and his confusion between “thou shalt do X” and “thou shalt hurt others if they don’t do X.”
Not to mention the demonstrable fact that a truly free market would take better care of human needs than Ben’s thievery, even if we could somehow redefine basic morality to justify theft.
I found this episode very sad. As much as they’d like to, people like Ben who advocate violence and threats against others can’t abstract their guilt away onto some almighty collective.
2. There were comments made in this podcast that mentioned if there were evil afoot that I’d stand shoulder to shoulder combating the evil. The argument, however, is not whether Obama care is evil – the discussion is whether there is a principled LDS position that supports Obama care and I believe it’s been proven that there is and furthermore a good argument could be made that Obama care actually increases and enhances liberty (provides a safety net, encourages risk-taking, cares for the tender-hearted and weak), which LDS members should be prepared to support.
You have to recognize evil before you can stand against it. The whole Bible and BoM are about agency and not infringing upon it. Somehow you have been able to get rid of that concept all together.
ObamaCare as a principal is evil. To TAKE from one to give to another something that they did not earn is evil. God did not give Noah, the Jaridites, or the Nephites a boat because it was in their best interest. He made all of them build their own boats.
Please unless you are the tender hearted or week that you are talking about do not make assumptions for the rest of us! I am on SSI because of an injury with 3 kids and no real help from their father. I would consider myself part of that group and I have a right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Nowhere in that statement does it talk about the quality of life that I am entitled to! That part is up to me.
I am shocked at your concept of what is good and what is principled since you are a member of the church and I am surprised that there are so many members that would agree with you. I do not mean that offensively. I mean that honestly.
Ben, over and over you used the argument that submitting to taxation, Obamacare or anything else is essentially voluntary because anyone that doesn’t like it is free to dissociate from the United States and leave the territory claimed by its government.
Most every other patch of liveable land on the planet is claimed by some government or other that will also claim a portion of our imaginary refugee’s wealth and productivity.
Can our refugee imagine he is free or has liberty in Angola or France or wherever because he pays taxes to their government instead of to Uncle Sam? That’s like saying you’re an athiest because you don’t believe in Buddha!
What matters isn’t who we’re NOT paying taxes to. What matters is the coercive confiscation to which we are being subjected.
Taking it a step further – imagine for a moment if all the other peoples of the earth decided to renounce their own way of government and be subjected to the US Constitution and its government. (Hard to imagine it happening in the current state of the world, but perhaps there’s at least a nonzero chance.) What should our refugee do if he doesn’t want to live under the Constitution – build a rocket and go into space somewhere?
Now, I agree with you that the liberty to leave one’s home nation and renounce citizenship is a very important right. And free and open borders can introduce some wholesome competition in the “market” of nations – individuals can choose to live in the nation where they feel the framework of governance best suits them and their goals. Indeed, for just this reason people have flocked to the US for generations, because our government mucked around with people’s lives and liberty comparatively less than in other places. Or rather, that was the case until recently.
But your idea that a guarantee of liberty is that we can leave makes you dependant on the existence of liberty outside our nation’s boundaries for that guarantee to be effective. A dubious guarantee, indeed.
(Not that I am letting your interlocutors off easy, though. I find their clinging to the sanctity of property rights to be a rather queasy substitute for the control over our own lives that God wants for us. The problems of getting along and structuring communities in a way that pleases as many as possible don’t magically go away once we become as free from taxation and confiscation as they want to be. But that’s for another post.)
It’s definitely not my preference to use a word like voluntary as it relates to taxes or Obamacare because, unfortunately, the word loses its meaning when discussed too deeply. As has been asserted previously, paying tithing is voluntary, however the consequence of not paying tithing is being excluded from the temple and forfeiting eternal glory. Personally, I don’t see much of a choice when presented with living a life that entitles me to ‘all that the father hath’ or essentially outer darkness or some level of being between the two. But if we agree that tithing is voluntary (and I have not seen much disagreement on this) then I don’t understand how we wouldn’t agree that taxes are much more voluntary than tithing because with taxes I at least have the option of throwing off my government and instituting a system that better aligns with my liberties, or leaving the States and trying to make something work better somewhere else. I don’t believe we have a similar option of throwing off our Lord.
The broader point was the question of whether taxes and policies currently in place, or proposed through Obamacare, are destructive to our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness in similar fashion as what is laid out in the Declaration of Independence and my stance if that we have not reached that level of criteria yet (forbidding the passage of laws, institutional harassment, dismissal of grievances, arbitrary disillusionment of representation). Furthermore, a good case can be made that shows how Obamacare could enhance and progress liberty through a healthier society, risk-taking, and general welfare.
And I never assert anywhere that a guarantee of liberty can be found outside the borders of the United States. What I did specifically say that IF I agreed that our current government is destructive to our individual ends (life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness) that I would NOT agree that there is a proposed system of government that would better protect and defend these ends to secure my safety and happiness (as laid out as an obligation in the Declaration). To me, essentially this means that we have to stop whining about how unfair the game is and threatening to take our balls home and insert ourselves into the system and affect change (if we so desire and we can garner support). If you don’t like the 10 foot basketball hoop because you can’t dunk (or don’t approve of Obamacare or taxes), don’t whine about the game and threaten to go home (using negative language like redistribution or destruction of liberty) – either play harder (status quo) or marshal support to get a 9 foot rim as standard (elect people that won’t support the legislation or get elected on your platform).
Unfortunately, it’s much easier and more emotionally satisfying to say that taxes are collected at the point of a gun, that Obamacare is a destruction of liberty, that our liberties have been and are being eroded, and that there was more liberty during the time of slavery or extermination ordered approved Missouri.
“Unfortunately, it’s much easier and more emotionally satisfying to say that taxes are collected at the point of a gun”
-If I don’t pay my taxes men with guns will show up at my door demanding payment.
Ben, when you were intelligence and nothing more, you were OFFERED greater happiness and light. You made a voluntary covenant in which you gained your first estate.
When you were offered your second estate, you were one of the 2/3 who covenanted not only to obey the commandments (all of them) but to also allow others hear on earth to choose what they will do either towards keeping or breaking them. You did ALL this voluntarily. It was not forced upon you. You accepted these opportunities gladly. You’ve promised at least 3 separate times to pay your tithing b/c you want the blessings.
The threat of going to Outer Darkness, (which is not going to be your punishment for not paying, but even if it is.) simply represents the absence of any of the potential eternal blessings that you hope for. It doesn’t matter HOW MUCH one may fear and tremble at the idea of going there, you aren’t feeling the threat of coercion.
I want to impress upon your mind a term I invented “Voluntary Punishment”. When you freely signed on for the blessings you also signed on for the punishment.
When a tax is passed in DC, I didn’t volunteer for that. The principle of “consent” that you operate on is MANUFACTURED. There is a law being made right now that says that if I don’t purchase a health care plan and do what I can to avoid that transaction, I can be imprisoned AND fined thousands of dollars. That’s what comprised this health care reform bill. SO if I insist upon being free, I will be tracked with my tax returns, snitched on at hospitals who will become law enforcement proxies and then summoned to court and finally run down and dragged away to a cage or shot (if I resist)…and I’m supposed to believe that I gave my consent for this? It’s somehow voluntary? The fact that I know the potential consequences does not make it voluntary. I have to have the opportunity to INDIVIDUALLY accept or reject the “offer” of medical care for it to be voluntary.
The consent mechanisms that you ascribe to, are manufactured by men. I did not consent to this. This “WE” that you speak of is NOT me. It is “THEM”…and apparently YOU are part of this THEM.
That being said, I don’t mind you having your positions. I love that they get people riled up…even if you get darther and darther the more you defend them. I think that you’re special enough to have your own place prepared for you. “Outer Darthness”…where Darth Ben does nothing but listen to LDS Liberty Episodes for Eternity!!!
MWHAHAHA!
Because you cannot read tone of voice, I feel that I came off harsh in the last thing that I wrote. I am sorry for that and also for not putting what I quoted you on, in quotations.
You stated this… “Unfortunately, it’s much easier and more emotionally satisfying to say that taxes are collected at the point of a gun, that Obamacare is a destruction of liberty, that our liberties have been and are being eroded, and that there was more liberty during the time of slavery or extermination ordered approved Missouri.”
I do not think that anyone has said that taxes are collected by point of gun but, they are being taken not given out of a good percentage of peoples pay checks. Those who do not pay taxes pay fines that are unreal, or they do go to jail. You cannot even fight that fact. All you have to do is watch the news or read a paper/magazine to find out that does happen.
I want to let you know that I do not think that Obamacare is worse than the time of slavery or the extermination order that was approved by Missouri. I think it starts us down a road that will lead to things being worse but, that Obamacare alone is not going to do that.
“The broader point was the question of whether taxes and policies currently in place, or proposed through Obamacare, are destructive to our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness in similar fashion as what is laid out in the Declaration of Independence and my stance if that we have not reached that level of criteria yet (forbidding the passage of laws, institutional harassment, dismissal of grievances, arbitrary disillusionment of representation). Furthermore, a good case can be made that shows how Obamacare could enhance and progress liberty through a healthier society, risk-taking, and general welfare.”
What you seem to be missing to me is the news. There was a large gathering outside the white house by tea partiers just a couple of weeks ago. It was not just a couple of hundred of people we are talking about either, it was somewhere around a million is what I read and the bill passed anyway. I could not be there but, I did call my congressman since I could not be there. People are not sleeping on this one and it getting passed whether or not the people want it to.
When it comes to your last sentence that I put in bold I would like to make a point that I think you will be able to follow me on. I am not saying that to be rude either. When Heavenly Father (HF) sent us down here he did not give us the gospel because, it would be good for us or to make sure that we would get home. He got rid of that plan. He gave us agency. He lets us discover the gospel and accept or reject at our own will. When you look at that principle, I do not think that you have a leg to stand on with that comment about Obamacare.
Honestly, there is so much more that HF wants to give, or do for us that he cannot because of our own shortcomings. If HF is not going to FORCE us to be members of the church, live the Word of Wisdom, be honest in our daily living, ect… then why would HF want us to FORCE each other when it comes to healthcare? Wouldn’t those other things enhance and progress, our liberty as well?
I did try to bold and italicize what you sad so that it would stand out as what you said but for me that did not work.
I would like to know how Ben rationalizes away statements from the Prophets that taxes are “legalized plunder”, that Socialism and Communism are one in the same, that Communism is evil (and therefore Socialism is –thus socialized medicine, welfare, education, etc are all as well), etc, etc. My book suggestion would be “Prophets, Principles, and National Survival” which is a compilation of words of prophets and apostles (almost always first presidency members).
Another thing I’d like to point out is that EVERYTHING in this life is given to us by God. He is the author of our creation. We cannot do more than what He allows. I don’t believe there can be a right that is given to us by “the majority” and not by God. If it wasn’t given to us by God then it isn’t ours whether you call it a right or not –that’s just entitlement. Just as we don’t have the “right” to steal from others means we can’t give that right to government (taxes) because it wasn’t ours to begin with, we cannot claim a right to healthcare (and the insuing taxes) that you yourself stated others didn’t have a right to in the past, isn’t God-given, and isn’t unalienable, and that you say is given “by the people.” Sounds like taking Glory that isn’t ours from the Father…sounds like an extension of the plan of Satan.
I’m amazed how Ben can claim that threatening to send a bunch of men with guns to your house, break the door down, rush in yelling and screaming, pointing all of there guns at you when found, yelling “get on the ground or we’ll shoot”, then proceeding to forcefully and physically extract you from your house, throw you in a car, take you to an unknown location, and throw you in a confined dungeon where you will most likely be physically assaulted and raped for an unknown amount of time all IF you don’t pay your taxes means that the payment of taxes is all just voluntary… (and yes what I described is exactly what can happen (and has happened) to you if you don’t pay your taxes).
Ben would have us all believe that threatening physical violence for non-compliance is not forceful… By this “logic” what the mafia does is not forceful and all those that pay them are “voluntarily” consenting. Insane…